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Echoes and Mirrors» Blog Archive » A Three-Part Act: Internet Argument

A Three-Part Act: Internet Argument

I found an internet argument that didn’t make me puke. In a place I never would have expected it: the Libertarian Republican blog. In my never-ending quest to mock “socially conservative libertarians” I bring this to you.

Original post:
A Social Conservative libertarians could support

Congresswoman Michele Bachmann of Minnesota has become a darling of sorts for libertarian Republicans, siding strongly against tax increases, seriously slamming cap and trade, shining light on death panels in Obama’s proposed health care bill, and questioning the federal reserve, and their inflationary policies.

Now, for the first time, she’s gone on record, about a potential 2012 run. World Net Daily reports:

WND reporter Drew Zahn asked if Rep. Bachmann saw herself running for President in the future. “If I felt that’s what the Lord was calling me to do, I would do it,” she answered. ”When I have sensed that the Lord is calling me to do something, I’ve said yes to it. But I will not seek a higher office if God is not calling me to do it. That’s really my standard. If I am called to serve in that realm I would serve, but if I am not called, I wouldn’t do it.”

Which is hogwash. Even right-leaning libertarians wouldn’t consider this woman for office. (World Net Daily? Really? It’s the Weekly World News of the political news world. Hell, I don’t even think Alex Jones takes them seriously.) Commenter “Anonymous” calls them out on this:

Oh for pete’s sake. Another theocrat. Where are the real libertarians and why aren’t you giving them attention instead of posers like Bachman who claim to be for liberty, but who really want to force others into their religious dogmas?

Exactly. Libertarians are supposed to be pretty serious about their separation of church and state.

Kn@ppster adds some well-deserved snark:

You left part of the headline out. It should read “A Social Conservative libertarians could support … if they were high on crack.”

Right on, brohem.

But Ran scoffs at Anonymous!

Let me guess:
“…but the problem with social conservatives is that they want to destroy liberty by forcing others to adhere to their religious beliefs!! AAAARGHHHHH!!!”

I can’t imagine what his point is except to emphasis that of Anonymous.

Anonymous responds in kind with a clearly stated response:

Ran, you are incredibly short sighte don this. No one is saying that there’s anything wrong with being socially conservative, or that libertarians can’t also be social conservatives or vice versa.


You’re failing to recognize the distinction between a social conservative who applies their lifestyle to their own life and family, and one who tries to force i on others. There are plenty of social conservatives out there who go about their business, maybe even proudly state their social conservative beliefs, but don’t try to enact legislation to force it on others. Bachmann is not one of them. She has consistently tried to force her beliefs onto otehrs through government intervention. That is not a libertarian social conservative, that is a statis social conservative, also knows as a theocrat.

Emphasis added, because it is the crux of the whole argument.

So, if you support social conservatism, that’s great. If you support forcing social conservatism onto others through government intervention, you are most definitely not a libertarian.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but stop co-opting the libertarian label for your nefarious social conservativism.

Ran responds with one of the most common internet arguing tactics, most commonly known as “[citation needed]”:

“She has consistently tried to force her beliefs onto others through government intervention.”

Illuminate us, please. Specifics. What legislation has she sponsored or actively supported that demonstrates this? Public statements?

If you’re right about Bachmann, I’ll be glad to know it. I was dead wrong on my initial support for Romney, and my initial impression of Oh-Oh was, too, extremely incorrect.

A hint of open-mindedness, as well. Bravo. Anonymous, being the daring internet-savvy cat he is, offers up requested evidence:

While I think Bachmann has a lot of good things to say, and we should applaud her for those good things, she is not really a viable candidate that I think most principled Libertarians could stomach. Examples of Bachmann’s non-libertarian approach to social conservatism:

#1: Supports both a federal and state constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage and legal equivalent, and is a critic of any type of civil union for gay couples.

#2: The board of directors of New Heights Charter School school, led by Bachmann, tried to set up classes on Creationism and advocating that “something called ’12 Christian principles’ be taught, very much like the 10 Commandments.” (Anderson, Jr., G.R. (October 4, 2006). “”The Chosen One””. City Pages (City Pages (Minneapolis)) 27 (1348).)

#3: Bachmann is a staunch advocate of a federal prohibition of online poker.In 2008, she opposed H.R. 5767, the Payment Systems Protection Act .

In addition, she brings up her religious beliefs pretty constantly, and states she was told by God to run for office. While she’s in her right to say that, I am definitely wary of any politician who believes they were told by God to run for political office.

Those three issues are all very important because they lead down roads of furthering the goals of social-conservatives by means of a slippery slope.

But Ran won’t buy it:


SHE’S A “THEOCRAT” BASED ON THAT? You’re joking, right?

Look, I don’t agree with her policies on those specific issues either. But your evidence is anemic… you remind me of the hysterics who hated Bush because – uniquely because – of his views on abortion. The most civilized expression I have for it is that you have a rather precious criterion for calling Bachmann a “theocrat.”

Now I would be inclined to consider her a theocrat myself, based on her agenda of installing a program of religious indoctrination into schools alone.
Anonymous concludes this argument by more or less telling Ran he’s a moron:

I guess you and I have different standards. I don’t want the government telling me what to do in my own home/bedroom, I don’t want it determining what religion my kid gets taught, and I don’t want it telling me how I can spend my own money. Bachmann fails on all 3 of those counts. She is far from palatable as a libertarian.

Well, that pretty much sums it up.

So, it goes without saying Anonymous, if you want to rail against these bastards who falsely fly the libertarian flag with us, you are more than welcome to join the Echoes and Mirrors team.

Vernon Malcolm
Vernon Malcolm

Now that the anti-science, superstition-based initiative presidency is over, we need Manhattan projects to make us great again and boost us out of this Grotesque Depression. First we must provide free advertising-based wireless internet to everyone to end land line monopolies. Better yet, renationalize the telephone companies like in 1917 and now put them and the DTV fiasco and the internet under a renationalized post office. Then we must criscross the land with high speed rail. Because bovine flatulence is the major source of greenhouse gases, we must develop home growable microbes to provide all of our protein. Then we must create microbes which turn our sewage and waste into fuel right at home. This will end energy monopoly by putting fuel in our hands. We must finally join the metric system and take advantage of DTV problems to create a unified global standard for television and cellular telephones instead of this Anglo Saxon competitive waste. We must address that most illness starts from behavior, especially from parents. Since paranoid schizophrenia is the cause of racism, bigotry, homelessness, terrorism, ignorance, exploitation and criminality, we must provide put the appropriate medications, like lithium, in the water supply and require dangerous wingnuts who refuse free mental health care to be implanted with drug release devices. Churches should be licensed to reduce supersition and all clergy dealing with small children should be psychiatrically monitored to prevent molesting. Osama bin Laden and Timothy McVeigh were the ultimate superstition based initiatives. Aborting future terrorists and sterilizing their parents is the most effective homeland security. Preganancy is a shelfish, environmentally desturctive act and must be punished, not rewarded with benefits, preference and leave. Widen navigation straits (Gibraltar, Suez, Malacca, Danube, Panama and Hellspont) with deep nukes to prevent war. In order to fund this we must nationalize the entire financial, electrical and transportation system and extinguish the silly feudal notion that each industry should be regulated by its peers. Technology mandates a transformation of tax subsidies from feudal forecloseable debt to risk sharing equity. Real estate and insurance, the engines of feudalism, must be brought under the Federal Reserve so we may replace all buildings with hazardous materials to provide public works. Insects, flooding and fire spread asbestos, lead and mold which prematurely disables the disadvantaged. Disposable manufactured housing assures children are not prematurely disabled and disadvantaged. Because feudalism is the threat to progress everywhere, we must abolish large land holdings by farmers, foresters or religions and instead make all such large landholding part of the forest service so our trees may diminish greenhouse gases. Darwin led to the worst colonial, militarist, attrocity and stock market abuses in history - Lamarkian inhertiance and mitochondrial DNA show that Darwin was not all he is crackered up to be. We must abolish executive pay and make sure all employees in a company are all paid equally. We must abolish this exploitative idea of trade and monopoly and make every manufactured disposable cottage self sufficient through the microbes we invent. Southern Oligarchs destroyed the Democarts in the sixties and destroyed the Republicans this decade - they would not allow viable candidates like Colin Powell, Mitt Romney or Condi Rice to even be considered!